Wednesday, April 1, 2009

Film Podcasts - Vol. 7: Hollywood Saloon

by ERIK MCCLANAHAN

Erik,

I'm gonna hit ya with a SALOON EXCLUSIVE...

You might wanna wrap up that Hollywood Saloon article and get ready to post.  Seems like Spinal Tap isn't the only group getting back together this year.

Planning big splash in two weeks.

Best regards,
JJansen

And just like that, upon receiving this email two weeks ago (middle of March 2009), the best film podcast (it ain’t even close) of this rather young medium returns. That’s right, John Jansen and Andy Siems have settled their differences and are set to bring back The Hollywood Saloon.

“Yep, tis true. John and I have reconciled and we’re planning our comeback reunion tour,” said Andy Siems, co-host and co-creator of the Saloon. “I’m very happy about it as we can now get back to making a lot of the shows we have always wanted to make.”

Jansen and Siems, longtime friends, are planning a special show for the return after they release what’s next on their slate.

“The ‘special show’ we are planning is to record that new .pdf of the Raiders of the Lost Ark story sessions between Lucas, Spielberg and Kasdan from 1978. We will record the voices and add some music,” said Jansen. “Hopefully, this will be a fun way for people to hear the content from those sessions -- cause a lot of it is pure Indy gold.”

About the reunion, Siems says “John did a very cool thing.”

“He simply called me up and left a very nice message saying how important our friendship was to him and that he didn’t want to lose that. I had to think about it. I actually did not call him back for a couple of weeks. I had to really think about the whole situation. Once I finally called him back, we instantly fell right back in to Hollywood Saloon mode, talking shop. It was as if no time or trouble had gone by. Of course, over a 4 hour conversation we finally got to our issues, forgave each other and made plans not to do what we had done in the past. Two nights later we recorded a new full episode of the Saloon.”

For the uninitiated, The Hollywood Saloon is the Stanley Kubrick of podcasts – a very amusing and appropriate comparison to any longtime fan of the show – that is, with an eye for detail and a strong understanding of the podcast craft, the Siems and Jansen put together massive (most over two hours long, though the longest clocks in over four), though somewhat infrequent (like Kubrick they are not exactly prolific) shows dealing with a certain topic – examples include a David Fincher Master Class, and Early Works episode dedicated to great directors first films, the legacy of the Bond franchises, the art of DVD commentaries, film grammar, and DC vs. Marvel films.

The hosts’ use of sound effects and clips to highlight the discussion makes for a wonderful, educational and entertaining listen on every episode. The passion for cinema these two have is palpable – Siems and Jansen know their stuff and love talking about movies. This is the only podcast that I revisit old episodes. Most HS shows are meant to have a shelf life, which is the main difference between the Saloon and nearly every other film podcast out there, where most shows are about new releases and reviews, and ultimately disposable. In other words, Hollywood Saloon shows are timeless novels, while the rest are daily newspapers.

Siems and Jansen created The Hollywood Saloon in 2005. The shows became less frequent as years went by, when finally the news broke in December of 2008 that the podcast was ending after a disagreement over a promo package of unfinished shows. Siems quit the show, saying he wanted to do his own show. The Web site was to be retrofitted to exist only as an archive site.

The promo package consisted of rough edits discussions for The Dark Knight and Speed Racer as well as some updates on previous shows. Siems decided to sell the package for $15, considering it a "fund raiser."

“Somewhere in 2008, Andy just lost interest and his ability to care,” said Jansen.

He worried that once they started charging it would make a stain that is almost never removed. It would become a "jumping the shark" moment for the Saloon, he felt. “Even if we did go back to free shows, the ‘experiment’ would display a side to the show that I do not support or agree with at the time,” said Jansen.

“the $15 pack of shows netted us over 2K in donations,” said Siems. “I think we had two people who were upset about it. Most people donated, thanked us and then let us know how much they enjoyed the shows. Many gave over the suggested donation as well, a few upwards of $100. This helped us immensely in different ways.”

“The decision to end [The Hollywood Saloon] was mine,” said Siems. “I offered John the Saloon but he had no interest in continuing.” Siems went on to create a new blog and podcast, called Apocalypse Hollywood ,a familiar title to Saloon listeners. A few shows were released, allowing Siems to continue his passion for movies and talk radio. The first episode of the Apocalypse Hollywood podcast was almost entirely an explanation for the demise of Hollywood Saloon, where Siems cited “creative differences” as the catalyst.

“It was actually pretty simple,” said Jansen. “It comes down to a lack of communication.  We actually didn't speak by voice from October through February. But we did send e-mail back and forth, which laid the groundwork for the conversation reunion.
 
“In one way it was all my fault, if I had not completed and sent Andy the edited shows of Speed Racer, Fan Driven and Format Wars II, the promo pack would have had to wait for December (which was the original plan) and it would have contained different content.  But the temptation of having 5 completed shows was a little too much to resist.
 
“Andy felt like I would not go along with the promo package, and he was in desperate financial stress so he went ahead and plunged forward with the prop pack without informing me. When we finally spoke I informed him that I was not against the idea of doing the promo pack, but I was against the way he went about doing it, leaving me out of the process. In fact, I had some ideas that I thought would have helped the promotion like releasing a show to the feed first, not calling them "rough edits", adding a commentary, etc.
 
“Andy agreed,” Jansen said.  

Siems said, “One of the issues that had given us trouble in the past was when I wanted to do something that John did not want to do. We are both very strong minded and creative people and knew what we wanted to accomplish. That led to a lot of fighting. Probably one of the biggest reasons the Saloon dissolved in the first place was that I just was not going to fight anymore. I just said I am done with this fighting. This is how Apocalypse Hollywood serves it purpose.

“Apocalypse Hollywood will continue. It will serve as my own creative side project where I can do things I want to do on my own or things John is not interested in doing. the way we worded it was The Hollywood Saloon is Genesis and Apocalypse Hollywood is Phil Collins. Apocalypse Hollywood will serve its purpose and if you are a Saloon listener it will give you extra goodness to enjoy whenever something pops out unexpected.”

Siems said another big draw to get back together was he learned that it is difficult to find a podcast partner. “One of my ideas for Apocalypse Hollywood was that I was going to have lots of co-hosts from a variety of sources. Well, that didn’t turn out as easy as I had hoped. It was sometimes impossible to just get people to do what I had asked them to do. In those moments of frustration I realized that having John by my side was a true blessing and that if we could just get past the fighting and bullshit that maybe we could get back to making shows we were proud of. With JJ Abrams Star Trek coming out in early May I knew I could not carry a Star Trek show solo. This is one of THE shows I wanted to give the full Saloon treatment (like the Bond shows) since I am such a Trek fan. One of the first things John said when we started talking again was that he really wanted to do that massive Star Trek show that I had always talked about. So his desire to focus on that show was important to me since that is a show I’ve been wanting to do and even talking about since the inception of the Saloon. Now to get it done by early May; I see many sleepless nights in my near future. The coming Saloon Star Trek show was a major sticking point in pulling the Saloon back together.”
  
Says Jansen: “We both know our rich 20 year friendship is a key element to the conversational flow of the show, however, I told Andy that even if we were not friends, it should not mean that we don't work professionally together.  In the end, it's important to realize when you have something good and special and not let other distractions interfere with that.”
 
Jansen notes that the two friends have different working styles: “The biggest difference in Andy and I is in our conceptual process and execution. I made my first feature film on Super-8 film at 16 -- it took me a year and a half to complete. I understand the process of the long haul -- of designing a plan and then spending two years putting it together. I'm patient, because to be a filmmaker, you have to be.

“Andy is a music video director – or was. That was his zone of excellence, and it also reflects his thinking and process. Andy likes to work on something for a few days, then move on to the next thing. In The Color of Money terminology, Andy is a banger, like 9 ball, fast and quick. Where I am more of the old-school straight pool kind of guy. It is this combination of different work styles that gives our show its uniqueness.”
 
Jansen has set up rehearsal schedules for the Saloon, “like a band” he said, in hopes to keep the hosts on schedule to record every week. The Web site will undergo a re-design sometime this summer.

“I think we have a lot of work to do to regain the trust and attention of the audience we had,” said Jansen. “I hope they are ready for more long form discussions because we are only getting started.”

ADDENDUM: Original interview with John Jansen about The Hollywood Saloon. (summer 2008)

Erik McClanahan: How did the idea for the show come along?

John Jansen: Andy and I both disliked WAR OF THE WORLDS in Summer 2005. After hearing several film related podcasts praising the film, Andy decided that our conversations would be as good or better fodder for a film podcast. After recording 2 shows in the “Siskel & Ebert” format, it was suggested to switch the format of the show to a single topic/ idea/ director and explore the subject in more depth and discussion. The show started to take shape and really took off from there.

EM: Why a film podcast?

JJ: The format was there. The knowledge in our heads was there. All we had to do was add a little effort and passion and the rest seemed a no brainer. We know film. We talk film. So a film podcast seemed the best fit. PLUS…our show was a reaction to what we were not hearing on other podcasts – subjects and director’s not being discussed. Our idea of what THE HOLLYWOOD SALOON podcast could be was the true inspiration for producing the show – an alternative to “sound bite reviews” and lazy film discussion.

EM: What is your goal or mission statement with the podcast?

JJ: To produce a fun and informative show that would provide an intelligent and well-researched discussion on any given topic, with room for our own personal tastes and personalities to shape the conversations. We are not fans of “sound bite reviews” or lazy research passing itself off as the de facto answer on films. The only mission statement we had is that we should continue doing the show only if : a.) we both agree on the subject and b.) we both are having fun doing it.

Like most passion projects – it was not designed to make money or seek fame. The work and quality of the work was the most important factor. Our goal was to create a show that someone might actually want to re-listen to in a year or two – which is sort of the true test of acceptance by an audience. This ‘library’ approach to the shows is what got us up and running.

EM: Give me some insight in to the state of podcasting. Since it is such a young medium, where do you see it going? What can we expect of podcasting in the future?

JJ: Podcasting will continue to grow. The underground, if exploited by the corporate world will soon become the mainstream. By design, THE HOLLYWOOD SALOON is not a podcast for everybody. We do not provide weekly reviews in a short quickly digestible format. We discuss cinema and everything that comes with it – choosing topics based on our interests – not on what Hollywood is selling that week. The financial future is uncertain, but like blog pages, regardless of consumer traffic, the format will continue to live and thrive.

EM: What do you love about your podcast, and the act of podcasting itself?

JJ: Not so different from my work as a filmmaker -- the satisfaction of producing good work that can both entertain and inspire the audience. I love the freedom our podcast provides that allows us to create a show on a variety of topics and filmmakers.

EM: Where do see your show going? How long do you think it will last?

JJ: The show will continue as long as Andy and I still enjoy doing it and can agree on the show. Andy’s time due to three children is more compromised – well, even more so if you include X-Box Live, Fantasy Moguls and all the other distractions Andy keeps daily tabs on. Ultimately, the show is in his hands because he has the final say-so as to the uploading and release of the shows. If Andy doesn’t feel like working on the Saloon – regardless of how I feel – there is no show.

EM: Any format changes to your shows that have been considered? How has the show developed since its inception?

JJ: Anything is possible. We would like to do live shows sometime in the future. The show has developed into something worth considering – i.e. we now have an audience listening, better not do 3 Star Wars shows in a row – best to space out the topics a bit so the running order has a balance of academic vs. fanboy discussions.

EM: Do you think podcasts should follow a set of rules?

JJ: That’s up to the individual podcaster. Like any art – the only rules are those you impose on yourself. I think it’s important to have many choices that people can adopt as their own favorites. My least favorite podcast will be someone else’s favorite – and that’s the way it should be.

EM: What I love about your show is how the episodes are timeless for the most part. Was this always the goal for Hollywood Saloon? What compelled you to avoid the trap that nearly every other podcast falls into? That is, making shows that can be forgotten by next week.

JJ: Yes, the goal was to try to create a show with shelf life – which is the same goal I pursue as a filmmaker. This was soon the goal of the Saloon after the 3rd show – when it became obvious this was the direction the show should go. Personally, I was not interested in doing a “review show” every week – so by default of our own interests and personalities and time available – this Saloon format eventually found itself.

EM: Talk about why you love film, and what you love about filmmaking. Why is this your passion? What began it all for you two, this love of all things cinema?

JJ: This one question could BE your entire article. Like most attachments to any art – it is often indefinable as to why your passions were sparked – perhaps it has to do with feeding the soul. For me personally, film and the art of filmmaking was a culmination of several passions: drawing, acting, writing and music. Combining all 4 of those together – while adding the art of editing to the mix, I found I had a natural ability with filmmaking that I did not have as a musician, writer, actor or artist. Also, being exposed to films via cable television in the late 70’s and early 80’s was an early daily dose of inspiration and escape. The discovery of Super-8 film cameras and the ability to make your own homemade films helped break down the impossibility of making films into a positive reality. Also important is that film lasts forever. As an actor in drama, we would work for months on a show – then perform it for two days – then it was over. Often without any visual proof that it ever happened beside a poster or program. Transferring those “plays” into “films” seemed natural to me, if only for the shelf life or library concept that the labor of all my work could still be enjoyed years later.


EM: How have the ideas for the different themed episodes come along? I'm talking specifically about Rough Cut, S.I.B.S., Special Edition and the commentary tracks, etc.

JJ: SIBS happened as a sort of audio FAQ to address the concerns originally about the length of the shows. Further shows continue along the same vein, whenever a new subject came up – or the need to rattle of a show when I visited Andy in Houston – SIBS was a quick perfect fit. The SE shows came about as a way of providing extra content to Saloon listeners who wanted it. This was for review shows and other year-end wrap up conversations. The ROUGH CUT shows came about from Andy’s desire to try to be a weekly podcast discussing more current topics. The experiment has produced mixed results, but has provided filler until the next show was ready – if not delaying that show altogether.

EM: Has the show received any attention from financial backers, advertising, etc. looking to take podcasting to a more mainstream arena? Do you think you'll someday make some money from this passion and show? Does it matter if you ever see a dime from the Saloon? What makes you continue to put in so much work?

JJ: Not $$$ advertising at this time. Anything is possible, but before it can happen, a larger commitment by Andy and myself would have to be made to the leg work needed to keep that kind of business up and running. Personally, I did not get into filmmaking or podcasting to get famous or get rich – I’m in it for the work. If we profit, fine – if not – it will not affect my passion or judgment one bit. I cannot speak for Andy on this matter, as I’m sure he feels differently.

EM: Talk about the work you've done in videos, TV and of course film.

JJ: Too big for this article. I’ve been making films independently and professionally for 24 years, which has included 3 feature films, dozens of short films, multiple music videos and commercials, several documentaries and corporate instructional videos, as well as experimental film work and backdrop films for live musical performances. Clips of work can be found at The Hollywood Saloon page on You Tube. From 1991 – 2002, I worked on many video projects while employed at both Sega and Sony, including training films, promo films, motion capture and editing. In 1999, I wrote, directed and edited “mainly ETC.”, an independent feature film that played in film festivals in San Francisco, San Jose, Las Vegas, and New York. In 2002, I was hired to create a new film of PINK FLOYD THE WALL, which was projected behind a live band playing the album to audiences in San Francisco. In 2004, I was hired by MANDONNA, the all-male tribute of Madonna to shoot a music video which turned into shooting a live concert, creating a DVD and touring with the band in New York. All this info can be found at: www.greenmillfilmworks.com

EM: I love the show lengths. Longer the better if you ask me. I know you guys love breaking the rules, but talk about why the shows are so long. How do they end up so long?

JJ: We basically think and talk in “feature length”. So it was natural that our phone conversations were 90m – 120m. This same approach bled into the creation of the show – plus the topics we choose demanded it.

EM: Do you ever record with a structure in mind to every episode? It seems like such a natural flow and conversation, which I know is what you're after, but do you go in with a plan of things you want to touch on with every episode?

JJ: Every show has a basic outline to follow – a flow chart of ideas, subjects, quotes or issues we want to cover. But when we hit REC – it is basically a live show. We never prepare what we are going to say, and often I have no idea what I’m going to say until it files out of my mouth. Our long friendship gives us each a natural ability to shape the conversation in a way that lures the other into the discussion, giving them room to explore. We have also made a “master list” of show we want to produce and it continues to grow and grow.

EM: The shows have become more spaced-out and sparse. Why is this? Is it too much work sometimes to put together such complex and high quality work?

JJ: It’s Andy. When he doesn’t feel like working on the show, both the audience and I have to wait. There is a big misconception with the Saloon listeners that adding sound effects, quotes and music adds a lot of extra time to produce the shows. This is not true – at least not for me.

All three we edited by me and handed over to Andy within a week of recording. So why did it take 6 weeks for Early Works to come out? Cause that’s how long Andy spent mixing the show – not editing. It is Andy’s personal will and tastes and distractions that result in delays for the show. I edited TEMPLE OF JONES over the first weekend and gave it to Andy to release that week. So why didn’t it drop till July? Blame X-Box live and Fantasy Moguls – those took priority over the show. Hate to say it – but the truth is that simple. It’s also the reason why the SPEED RACER episode is still not out yet. I did a first pass of the show – handed it off to Andy who wanted to add music and stuff – still not out 3 months later.

As long as Andy’s distractions (not kids, but videogames and other fantasy stuff) grow – the Saloon output will shrink. These were not issues when the Saloon started in 2005-2007.

EM: While you two obviously have similar tastes, you also seem to differ on more art house, foreign and obscure cinema. Do you think this makes the show stronger?

JJ: My tastes in film are a bit more widespread than Andy’s – we like and love many of the same films and directors – but despite my claims for over 10 years and even giving Andy the DVD’s – he still has not seen a single Kieslowski film. There is a reason Kieslowski is on the Wall of Heroes – but Andy does not know why – he just trusts me. Now, why hasn’t Andy taken my recommendation and watched the work of one of the greatest filmmakers ever? Only he knows. I think the duality of fanboy and academic discussions has proven to be a vital recipe for the Saloon.

EM: Tell me about the biggest fight / disagreement you two have had about a film? What was the film?

JJ: Probably Episode II (See Star Wars vs. Star Wars). But since Andy is a SW apologist, not sure if it counts. I also recently didn’t like Jumper much – but Andy did, and when I confronted him with all the problems in the film, he countered with he really liked the idea and special effects. So what do you say to that?

EM: I really like that you two still consider your selves to be students of film, I remember you saying something along the lines of: we should never stop learning because we should never stop being students; something like that. Tell me more about this, and how you two have continued to pursue knowledge of film.

JJ: I made a decision over 20 years ago to dedicate myself to film and filmmaking. Knowing the process that goes into just getting a film made, you learn early on that the process will be the journey. John McTiernan was correct in saying that it takes 20 years to get a film prose style – something I’m confident I have in my pocket. It’s the growth you make as a film watcher and developer that often changes your course. In high school, I made films about other movies (like my Super-8 remake of Thief, and my cop film MAGNUM or my detective film DIX or my sci-fi film THE RANGE RIDERS). These were influenced by other movies. By college, I became less interested in imitation, and more concerned with creating original film work. Once out of college, the challenge of developing feature films and what type of films they would be pushed me into a more Sex, Lies and Videotape direction, then say Cop Movie. Once I discovered Kieslowski, I found a path towards cinema that was worth my dedication. A type of film that was honest and reflective of the soul.

EM: What other things do you guys enjoy doing with your time besides film?

JJ: Living life in the Bay Area, attending (lots) of local concerts and gigs by friend’s bands and attending live theater where several actors I’ve worked with continue to perform.

EM: Are you two still pursuing your Rebel cinema project you spoke about on the Little Fat Girl episode? Did you receive many submissions?

JJ: You mean OUTLAW CINEMA? Sure, we both got over a dozen submissions – but like most good ideas at the Saloon, they lie in waiting for the time to pursue correctly. I personally feel bad that this ball was dropped, but there has been more pressing shows to attend to at this time.

EM: Are you going to record the rest of the Wall of Heroes episode? I love that feature on the site?

JJ: Someday.